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To the reader Macbeth is more than simply a mass murderer and a tyrant. We have seen the inner workings of his conscience: his fears, anxiety, and even his suffering. This makes him, if not likeable, at least someone with whom we can relate. It’s much harder to dismiss him as a freakish aberration: he’s scary because we can imagine circumstances of temptation which could also lead us to a similar self-degradation.
Why do we have such fascination with murderers and tyrants, anyway? Don't we want to see something in them that helps us to understand their behavior? How can we explain our collective desire to understand appalling behavior?
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ReplyDeleteJB
It would seem we have a fascination with tyrants and murderers because we wonder how a human being can be transformed into something so different than the average person. As a species we try to understand that which is different and when what is different was once something similar than it peaks our curiosity further. This desire for understanding is evidence for us to prove that we aren't like them.
ReplyDeleteTD
3rd period
I agree with almost all of this except the last part about being able to imagine the temptation, i personally cannot see myself losing my morals because my desires are out weighing them.
ReplyDeletei believe we are facinated with murders and tyrants becuase they are diffrent from the norm, they are not something that we encounter on a day-to-day basis. i think that the reason we are trully drawn to them and have a want to understand their "appalling behavior" is becuase we as humans are nosey we always want to know whats going on especially with those people who manage to turn their own life to shambes.
6BA
I agree with what TD said...We are fascinated murderers and tyrants (and characters such as Macbeth) because we want to understand what led them to act in that radical manner. I also think we are fascinated with what we fear--a murderer could have been an ordinary person who was changed by some event. Could a change like that not happen to us? It shows the dark side of humanity and how certain events can cause us to act in an evil manner.
ReplyDelete3HH
As humans, we have a drive to understand appalling behavior because if we are equipped with an explanation for it, we will be able to prevent ourselves from following in another's mistakes. In the case of Macbeth, his actions were obviously driven by his ambition as well as outside forces. It is scary to imagine that he was like any other human at the beginning of the play because this means that any of us could be subject to a similar downfall, even if not of the same magnitude. By explaining his downfall by simply saying he is too ambitious gives us peace of mind. We can easily say "If I am not as ambitious as Macbeth, I am safe from becoming a tyrant/murderer."
ReplyDelete3RE
I think that we enjoy hearing stories about murderers and tyrants for the same reasons we like movies with superheroes in them: they are interesting. They aren't average or mundane. We like hearing about conflicts and a murderer/tyrant king is bound to cause some large-scale conflicts. Along with conflict we like to be able to draw lessons from stories. If we can understand why the tyrant acted the way he/she did, then we can attempt to avoid a similar mistake in our own lives. We see that Macbeth's mistake was to allow his ambition to overtake his humanity and thus learn not to do the same.
ReplyDelete6BD
We are fascinated by tyrants and murderers because all of them once used to be innocent children who were forced by conditions either then or later on in life that made them change. A terrorist doesn't pick up a gun because he has the desire to, he picks it because he is forced to do so. They all have humble beginnings and we want to know what went wrong. Our desire to gain knowledge of their downfall helps us realize what we can do to prevent it in ourselves.
ReplyDeleteRS
6th period
We are fascinated by tyrants because we want to know why and how they gained that title and if the tyrant is capable of being a ruler that will help the people that he or she is ruling. Since the tyrant has this power, he or she would most likely begin to fear loosing that power of ruling over others. When this power is threatened, the tyrant would become desperate to maintain it. The extremity of this desperate measure is to become a muderer.
ReplyDeleteWe are fascinated by muderers because we would want to know why a person would consider becoming one and if the murderer's actions are considered righteous. If a tyrant became a muderer to secure his or her position, would it be considered righteous if that tyrant is only muderering the unfavorable heirs to the throne?
6AL
We are always fascinated by tyrants and murderers because we are always curious where they went wrong. We look at ourselves and think, "I could never bring myself to such an awful act!" We find it appalling that another fellow human being can take the life of another. It makes us wonder even more when we see such a catastrophe as Macbeth turn from a somewhat violent, but unsuspecting loyal character, to a bloodthirsty tyrant. We want to know what creates such an evil so as to understand it and/or prevent it in ourselves. Yet we still find it curiously intriguing. If there's one thing people find interesting it's seeing the terribly dark side of ourselves that no one would normally let creep out. It's kind of like the fights that are seen at school, although not terribly morbid, everyone cheers and watches, but nobody wants to interfere because they're frankly fun to watch. That's not the best example, but that's the only thing of.
ReplyDeleteNM3
I think we have such a fascination with murderers and tyrants because they don't act as society wants them to act, which is normal. Here, I define normal as conforming to society, and getting along with others in the same environment. They show the evil side and what people are capable of doing when driven with self-ambition and a desire to complete a goal. Macbeth is seen as a person with feelings, guilt, and a conscience which progresses to become indifferent. Seeing him before he became subhuman gives the audience the desire to know why he became the way he is; which is indifferent. Macbeth, with his ambitions and concern of the prophecy, one can relate to his pursuit of the throne. For example, people in everyday life work towards a self set goal or accomplishment, which may not be as appalling as when Macbeth murdered King Duncan for the throne, but it is a situation one can relate to. At first, Lady Macbeth is also seen as a tough piece of armor, which gradually chips away revealing her tormenting conscience. I think it is the revealing of the inner-workings and weakness of the murderers and tyrants that spark our collective desire to understand one's appalling behavior. Because in any possible situation, the person with the appalling behavior that we desire to understand may be one of us.
ReplyDelete6JA
Humans have a fascination with murderers and tyrants because we ponder "how could this have happened" or "what led them to this situation?" Because we all share a common human element, witnessing a tyrant confounds us and also sparks our interests in their psychology. This is the same for murderers, we are shocked by the fact that someone managed to kill another person. As a result of this crime, we want to know what steps in life led them to their horrible actions, and Macbeth surely demonstrates this interest as we discuss him. I also agree with many other comments that mention we fear becoming Macbeth, because we have seen a noble hero transform into something less humane and respectable. We are rational now, and we are curiously observing the irrational. As we read Macbeth and many other stories, we hope to be able to say "ooh that's why he/she did it!" to explain the evil acts of a despot or corrupted person. Yet, in Macbeth, we do not see his background as much as his motivations right before he commits the acts of murder and treason. Readers are also interested in any appaling behavior because it is something different, something out of the ordinary we do not see every day.
ReplyDelete3DC
I believe that we have a fascination with murderers and tyrants because we can’t fully experience how their mind works. We as humans have a curiosity of the unknown and therefore obsess over finding out what led one to become a murderer or tyrant in the first place, especially in such a situation where we cannot imagine ourselves committing an act such as murder. I think we do use murderers as examples to help us understand their character as well how far a human being can go in order to attain his/her goals. One can even compare Macbeth’s actions as a dispute between his id and superego which he was not able to control as he obviously let his id overcome his morals. We can actually relate to Macbeth as a character but not to the full extent; since humans are naturally selfish they are sometimes consumed by their greed and therefore let their emotions overtake their reason and commit such acts that they later repent. Our desires to understand appalling behavior is demonstrated by the need of humans to know what is and isn’t acceptable to society because clearly we do not want to be ostracized by society nor end up being disliked and eventually die brutally as Macbeth did.
ReplyDelete6CK
I think the most interesting thing about reading stories with murderers and tyrants is learning about their past and the actions leading up to their present state. Because we knew Macbeth as a noble warrior and dedicated husband, it is easier to sympathize with his actions.
ReplyDeleteAnd personally, it is exciting to read stories like Macbeth. I can't even try to put myself in his shoes because his actions are so out of this world! As a very safe, rational person, I find it interesting to read about someone who started out normal, took some risks, and turned into a tyrant.
LD 3
Being a society of curious beings, we are exceptionally fascinated by anything out of the ordinary. We are fascinated with Macbeth's descent from a hero to a murderous, raving tyrant for the same reason we are intrigued by the physically malformed or disabled; we gape and stare and try to wrap our mind around that which so violently jars us out of normalcy. Macbeth's transformation into a "freakish aberration" is only a one-dimensional aspect of our fascination with him and others like him. Because Macbeth began as an ordinary man who had achieved notoriety through legitimate means, we can easily see ourselves in him. We see our ambition and our thirst for success and accolades. Macbeth evokes a primal fear of our own pride and ambition as well as pity because, at least on some lesser level, we can relate to his plight. Macbeth also represents a deep-set fear: that the leaders we trust with our well-being, our livelihood, carry the capacity to betray our trust in the most utterly horrific of ways.
ReplyDelete6MM
We have a fascination with tyrants and murderers because their stories are unlike those of any others. We are curious to know what caused them be that way and can't quite figure out how their minds think so as humans, we want to be able to figure out the things we do not understand. From their actions and mistakes, we learn to not be like them.
ReplyDeleteWe also like to read about their behavior because their actions can also make us feel like a better person knowing that we have not done something as terrible. Or it can also give us horrible guilt for something similar we might have done in the past such as being led on by temptation. Either way, we understand that at one point they were normal and turned out different and it scares us that the same thing could happen to us.
KA 3
Personally, I like reading stories with cruel murderers because I want to see how the good will triumph over evil. I know it’s really cliché but seeing the murderer get captured and feel the wrath of justice against him makes me feel relieved. In this world of ours, the real murderers and killers do not always get what they deserve. Reading a story where they do get caught leaves the audience with the impression that justice can be delivered, and we can still hope that injustice against humanity will be punished.
ReplyDelete6ES
I think our fascination with these people because they could be any of us. Anyone of us could go down the wrong road, and so I think its natural for people to read these types of stories, because they want to see if they would have done the same thing in that situation. I think we do want an understanding but that comes from maybe trying to understand ourselves. If we can see the understanding of Macbeth's decissions or any other murderer we sort of start to understand ourselves because we relate to that person or character.
ReplyDeleteCB 6*
I think that we as a species are fascinated with those among us that we categorize as murderers and tyrants because they are not so different from the rest of us. What murderers and tyrants possess that the average person does not is publicity, not a totally different set of morals. Macbeth's behavior is very easily explainable: his ambition led him to murder Duncan and he perpetrated all of the various acts of violence after that in the interest of his own security. Ambition and a desire for security are two things that most everyone can be said to possess. I think that in "evil" characters we all see a little bit of ourselves.
ReplyDelete6SL
Good point, ES. For all its murders, some sort of justice is brought on Macbeth, permitting the audience to feel relieved and perhaps hopeful. Not all Shakespeare's tragedies allow this, notably King Lear.
ReplyDeleteI remember you said today in class that we could start new topics if we wanted to, so I decided to restart one. I remember in 3rd period we were discussing whether or not Macbeth could be considered to have a downfall. The debate ended with us considering Macbeth to be a normal person at the beginning of the play, and an evil, lesser human at the end. The arguments were very enjoyable, so I didn't really say anything in class. However, the simple answer to whether or not he had a downfall is yes, and the explanation is this: Macbeth starts off as a soldier well respected by his fellow soldiers, and by the end of the play he is hated by all, even those he rules. This can be considered a downfall, whether Macbeth was an evil man or not. This is the downfall in the play, regardless of Macbeth's personality.
ReplyDeleteRJ Period 3
What is most interesting about tyrants is how they became what they are. That is what intrigues most people. The same goes for Macbeth- the story revolves around how he became who he is at the end of the play, and that is what makes the story. The road to evil is what fascinates people.
ReplyDeleteMR 3rd Period
We are fascinated by tyrants and murderers because they were someone who we could relate to. They ARE us. Not just WERE us, but they are us because we ultimately have the decision whether or not WE become the tyrant/murderer. This is the fascinating part: our choices make who we are and, for all we know, doing something "great" in our eyes could mean something "horrible" in the eyes of others.
ReplyDeleteFor Macbeth, he chose to go through with his ambitions because it seemed to be a good idea at the time. He killed the King, then Banquo, and then Macduff's family for fear of someone finding out his intentions. He wanted to become king, but he doesn't want others to know the process of how he will become king.
If I were in a situation similar (minus the killing) to that, I would possibly make that decision if it was a good idea. We can understand the tyrant/murderer's actions if we could "step in their shoes."
However, it may not be enough just to step into their shoes. If we look at it from an outside standpoint, we would find a tyrant/murder's actions appalling. We find it appalling because it would be something we would never choose to do in a million years, but when it comes down to it, a "wrong" decision may be "right" for you.
These appalling behaviors are something of wonder. We are fascinated by them because they come out of simple choices, whether you call them "right" or "wrong" or whatever. These choice could be as simple as whether or not you should talk to this person. Whatever the decision, tyrants/murderers are people we can relate to. They make choices that could either help them or hurt them. And possibly corrupt them if they're not careful.
But then that leads to the question: What could be corrupting? (other than the usual desire, ambition, power, etc.)
RB3
i agree with 6BA i think we are interested in murders, killers, and people who mess up their own lives because humans are nosey people. that's why magazines like People exist. the copies about people who ruin their lives sale a lot more than a story of courage.
ReplyDeleteMost of us live a some-what everday life therefore we are interested in murders because it's different. It doesn't even matter if we hate the person in the end because we still want to know what they're going to do next.
JC 3rd period
It is my opinion that we are interested in murders and tyrants for a couple of reasons. For one, we want to know how we compare. Are our character traits similar to those who kill? We could also be interested because they make everyone else look "better." Secondly, we are curious about things we dont understand. It is not normal or easy to understand the motives of a murder but we want to use our reason to attempt to understand. We want to see something in their behavior so that we understand, even if there is no explanation.
ReplyDelete-MH 3
Our fascination with the egregious acts of murderers and tyrants stems from our desires to see justice prevail; in "Macbeth," justice prevails as Macbeth is ultimately overturned, leading to the termination of his reign of terror and radical tyranny. This provides the audience with, like ES stated, a sense of relief. The reader does not necessarily take interest in the moral deterioration of Macbeth, but rather how Macbeth's acts of injustice ultimately lead to his demise - a merited consequence that exemplifies justice.
ReplyDelete6: JY
I believe that people want to understand appalling behavior because they will be able to think to themselves "So and so had this happen to them, so it won't happen to me". People do not like to imagine that they are capable of becoming a tyrant. Macbeth seemed like a pretty ordinary person until he decided to take matters into his own hands when he heard about the prophecy. It was because of this that his behavior became appalling, and his life started falling apart from there until the end.
ReplyDeleteIM Period 3
I believe that people's fascination with murderers and tyrants stems from human being's fascination with disasters in general. They are captivated by the emotions produced when reading about a Macbeth or some other tyrant the same way they are captivated reading about a freak accident. Because of the emotions created by these tyrants and tragedies, people strive for some sense of closure. This ties into what 6ES said about wanting the cliché of "good will triumph over evil." The audience wants the cruel Macbeth to be defeated by the righteous Malcolm (whose only lie is lying about his virtue) and the rightfully vengeful Macduff (his wife and kid were killed by said tyrant).
ReplyDeletePart of wanting closure is figuring out why a murderer/tyrant did what he did in the first place. We want to know if someone like Macbeth or Hitler or Stalin could ever pop up again and, if so, how we could stop this from happening. We also want to see how a murderer or tyrant differs from ourselves, to reassure ourselves that we could never become like "them."
Also I imagine Schadenfruede plays a part in closure as well. We're all glad we're not Macbeth, because he's a jerk.
FH 6th Period
WHY does everyone feel bad for Macbeth?!?
ReplyDeleteHe messed himself up, and what little conscience he had left was dismembered because he doesn't stand up for himself, to his wife, or for the truth. He only because Thane of Cawdor because he killed in battle like he simply avoids his emotions. When his sympathetic nature DOES finally take hold in the scene after Duncan's death, or in Banquo's murder and ghost scenes, he is too far down the hatch to come up anyway, and he says it himself that he is too far up in blood to turn back.
Perhaps my morals are too... innocent, because I don't side with Macbeth. I agree that Shakespeare at least tried to gain some sympathy for Macbeth, but in all honesty, he was a tyrant from the start; the only thing that makes him relatable is his faint conscience.
However, this personality does create an intriguing character and plot, I agree.
Now that English has become TOK class, I'm going to say that we are captivated by evil and murder because it captures our emotions and a person's empathy for another. In all reality, we put ourselves in the shoes of the "murderer" or whoever it may be, and for the sake of ourselves, not the character, we wish them the better.
Probably made no sense.
I think 6SL brings up a good point in that murderers and the like have something normal people do not... I think it's a bravery - an abnormal and contradictory one, but nevertheless - and it makes the person more likable in a sense because this quality is something to admire, but in a person totally unlikely to have such a quality.
AyBee6
We are obsessed because we want to see what it's like when we no longer have a conscience. It boosts our conscience because we do not wish to turn out this way. Also, tyrants and murderers are interesting because people with consciences are boring.
ReplyDelete6DW
i agree with JC from 3rd period. i believe it is a part of human nature to delight in others trials and mistakes. In this case we the readers are fascinated by the murders and tyrants because we are nosey and we dont understand the minds of murderers because we have never been there. We want to find out the why questions like what drove them? and how could they? i believe these flaws of macbeth to temptations mekes him human and more like-able. The fall of Macbeth does in fact bring the reader to an ease because now we know the play is almost done. :)
ReplyDelete3-D.G
I was just kidding... I loved the play.
ReplyDelete3-D.G
I agree with IM, I think people are so fascinated with murderers and tyrants because we can relate to them on SOME level -they're human. We're human. People are fascinated to see what differs between their minds and the mind of a person who goes on crazy rampages and kills people for reasons that seem justfiable to them. If we want what someone else has (like with Macbeth and Banquo)one of our options wouldnt be to kill that person. So what made it so for Macbeth? That makes us think, therefore it makes us interested.
ReplyDeleteCG -3rd p.
We are intrigued by these types of behaviors because they are a mystery to us. The reason as to how a completely average person can turn into a heartless murderer such as Macbeth trggers our curiousity and fear because it makes us feel vulnerable. We want to know more about it to avoid it happening to ourselves.
ReplyDelete3rd KT
Our morbid fascination with tyrants and murderers stem from the fact that these people have acted on emotions we have all felt, like hatred and anger. We are interested in them because they serve as cautionary tales of what could happen if we give in to the baser emotions that we normally try to subdue. Also, it makes us realize that although we try to act above our emotions and with a civilized air, we have the ability to revert back to our beastly tendencies. Murdering others and wanting to be dominant are our primal instincts showing themselves.
ReplyDeleteAs for Macbeth, he is more than just a cold-blooded killer to us because we have read the inner machinations of his mind. We know that he didn't always feel the blind ambition that clouded his judgment and ultimately led to his downfall. It is because we were introduced to him when he was completely sane and have seen his hesitation to kill the king that we don't write him off as just a cold-blooded killer.
6: CV
Although we see the bad in Macbeth we can't help but be interested in him because we do have a fascination with murderers. We can't help but wonder if we would be able to do the things he did if put in the same situation.
ReplyDeleteSS3
Perhaps the reason we seem to have such facsination with murderers and tryants is because, like similarly stated, the bottom line is that the person is human. We are all humans and thus have that connection with a murderer or tyrant. Therefore I agree with the view that if one human being can become so terrible, that it is possible for another to become terrible and destuctive, including one's self. To prevent this from ever occuring personally, we therefore try to discover why a person would react in such a manner and strive to not follow that direction. That explains our collective desire to understand appalling behavior. However, I think that if possible, we DON'T want to see something in them that helps us understand their behavior. If possible, we DON'T want to find a connection with them or understanding of them. We view that the less we can relate to them, the less likely we will become like them. We do not want to find similarities with them, because that makes the reality of turning into a murderer or tyrant a greater reality.
ReplyDelete3 AN
The thing that's so interesting about murderers and tyrants is that reading about them provides us with hints and clues as to how one gets to be that way. Everyone has had wicked thoughts at immature times. Studying the way a murderer acts is a way to indulge and sort of live through that person when one does not want to actually become a murderer. People are interested in out of the ordinary things, things that aren't normal. People want that risk of being different, but obviously murdering someone takes it to the extreme.
ReplyDeleteWhat's scary about being a murderer or tyrant is that they have their downfall, either being persecuted by others and/or from their own conscience. Everyone knows that it eventually happens, but they don't know why people still choose to act out such horrible sins. That is why people are fascinated with murderers and tyrants, and that is why people continue to try to understand this corrupt path.
CL 3rd
My initial response to the blog post went a little along the lines of RS and BD.
ReplyDeleteI think that the thing makes murderers and tyrants so fascinating is the fact that they have fallen to their temptation whereas, while we may have, it is on a much smaller scale such as sneaking a cookie from the cookie jar. No big deal, but still falling to the temptation. Its fascinating to know that at one point that character, in this case Macbeth, started with humble beginnings just like you and I and everyone else. The circumstances presented to us in life often act as stimuli for the transformation into being a murderer and a tyrant. That is what separates us from them and what makes it interesting is that up to a point we can relate to them.
In initial response to 6 RS regarding terrorists. I think a terrorist does have humble beginnings at birth but quickly falls under the influence of the culture and way of thinking as those around him or her. Just like we students sometimes borrow off the fashion we see around us, that terrorists adopts the ideas of those around him.
6 HJD, re-post